…this entire vaccination issue is a pretty good example of how messy things can get when an issue abruptly switches over from You can safely pander about this to This is a third rail. In 2008 politicians could get away with smiling and nodding at the anti-vaccination people while backing up slowly. in 2015 it appears that they cannot.
So don’t expect this to destroy any actual political careers; taking seriously the anti-vaccination people was far too widespread a practice back then, on both sides of the fence. It’ll mildly embarrass the politicians getting caught out now, and that’s about it. Even the media can’t really pretend that it’s all one-sided.
Moe Lane
PS: I have no sympathy whatsoever for the anti-vaccination movement.
Any sympathy the New Jersey Whale would have gotten from me he just burnt.
.
Meanwhile, Rand has confirmed he’s just as bat-(guano)-nuts as his
(out)house-rat father.
.
They join Marco Rubio in being dead to me, I will actively oppose them in the primary and the general, although I will not use Moe’s for the latter as it would be impolite.
.
Mew
As much as I believe Rand is dangerously naive when it comes to foreign policy, I wouldn’t use this case as an example to question his sanity…
–
I was partially paralyzed a vaccine (thankfully it was only temporary). A lot has changed since I was 4 years old though (for one thing, that vaccine was replaced some years back).
–
Thing you need to remember is that Rand is an optimologist (if I remember correctly), he is not a pediatrician. If he was a pediatrician I’d agree with you.
Garfield, I’m not any kind of doctor, but I can understand the concept of herd immunity and how it works …
.
If I had to guess, both of the Pauls also understand it .. but are perfectly happy to pander to the paranoid outliers, the ones who *believe* conspiracy theories – as a way to win elections.
.
Mew
I understand the concept of herd immunity too, however people are not cattle, they are people.
–
Some of these vaccines can be dangerous, however a lot of those vaccines have alternate vaccines that can be used instead. My sister was given an alternate vaccine to the MMR one I had received some years earlier.
–
The real question we should be asking is how did these diseases get reintroduced, because Measles had be essentially irradicated in the United States.
As Mr. Lane or Mr. Stevens may put it, embrace the power of “and”.
.
Lots of non-citizens go to Disneyland. So do lots of idiots whose kids weren’t vaccinated. So do Doctors Without Borders types, for that matter.
.
Given the highly infectious nature of measles, what’s surprising is that this hasn’t happened before.
.
As for “eradicated”, that’s .. also somewhat dubious – my understanding is we’ve had cases of measles, mumps, rubella, polio, etc. etc. .. just usually in non-citizens or recent migrants.
.
Mew
As for vaccines being “dangerous”, that’s .. an interesting way to interpret “one in ten thousand or fewer” negative reactions.
.
I will note *again* that you and Junior Cat apparently had the same reaction, which – while frightening – is *not* life-threatening.
.
Mew
Vaccinations are good. (I’m rather fond of not being subjected to townwide quarantine. This was regularly the case back in my grandfather’s day.)
Anti-vaxxers are nuts. (The dangers of most vaccines are very nearly zero. The dangers of the diseases they protect against are present and horrific.)
.
That said…
It is not the proper role of the government to force its citizens to get vaccinated.
If not government, then what social organ or organs do you have in mind?
.
Church? Atheist-hater!
.
Corporations? #PoorLivesMatter
.
To put it another way, you have the right to not vaccinate your kids, but that doesn’t give them the right to infect (endanger, deprive of right to life etc.) mine.
.
So, again, who else is there?
.
Mew
In a word, freedom.
I think you’re an idiot it you don’t get your kids vaccinated.
That said, you have the right to be an idiot. You do not need my permission to pursue your happiness in whatever self-destructive fashion you wish. Nor does this rise to the level of negligence where the state has a legitimate claim to take the kids away.
.
Of course, quarantine the sh*t out of them if there’s reason to believe that they’ve been exposed.
I notice you did not answer my question.
.
Freedom’s great, but ya gotta be *alive* to enjoy it, eh?
.
As for quarantine, I’ll ask *again* – under what *authority* do you think quarantines get *enforced*?
.
Mew
Thank you, Luke. Always bizarre when conservatives and libertarians scream for the federal gov’t to imprison anti-vaxxers and confiscate their children. The vaccination-debate seems to tern the left-right paradigm on its head.
Perhaps I’ve simply missed it, but I’ve not seen any advocate locking up anti-vaxxers. What I have seen advocated is denying unvaccinated people from certain public places, which is difficult, but denying certain public services is not the same as denying actual freedom or locking people up.
Whenever I get an anti-vaxxer, I always go to the Penn and Teller video. http://youtu.be/RfdZTZQvuCo
This issue is like the essence of Democrat policies. If all the “proles” get vaccinated, then your precious pearl has no risk of disease, and no risk of autism (Yes, I know the doctor is no longer a doctor, but your average rich Leftist does not…..) either. It works just fine so long as everyone else follows the rules……
And yes, it is the proper role of government to deal with disease. Has been for a long, long time. Vaccinations are a new part of that, but an important one. And surely the lesson of “Typhoid Mary” has made it clear what happens when people are allowed to be uncontrolled vectors…..
I have worked long hours in hospitals, with sick children. I have seen children nearly dead (and in a few cases all too completely dead) from infection with whooping cough, pneumococcus, hemophilus influenzae, and meningococcus. I have seen children horribly disfigured by secondarily infected chicken pox. I have not personally seen measles or polio or smallpox (thank God), but I have ruled them out.
.
There is no glory in infectious disease. There is no nobility in allowing your children to contract diseases which can cripple them. If eradicating these killers from the public square is not a moral driver of the government, then it ought to be. Children do not deserve to be mutilated by the willful ignorance or intentional stupidity of their parents, especially when the prevention of these diseases is as benign and low-risk as it has become.
They can have their views, but I’d rather we “John Birch” them to outside of the party.
Quibble. I’d move to “David Duke” them to outside the party.
.
As in “Vote for the Democrat, it’s *important*”.
.
Mew
Been a while since I’ve posted, a lot of stuff going on in real life.
–
As someone that actually had a bad reaction to a vaccine, I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. When I was about 4 years old, I had a reaction to a vaccine (I don’t remember which one at this point) where I was paralyzed from the waist down for about 24 to 48 hrs.
–
That being said, a lot has changed in nearly 30 years, I don’t believe that particular vaccine is in use anymore and has been replaced with one that I’m not allergic to. So if I was given the replacement vaccine, I would have never had that experience.
–
I’m pretty much against the anti-vaccine crowd, because not getting your kids vaccinated puts them in serious danger from a lot of dangerous diseases. If parents do have a concern, they can ask their doctor if an allergy test should be conducted first. There are alternative vaccines that can be used in some cases.
–
In any event, I wonder how much of this current outbreak is due to Obama’s open border policy…
The “new polio” outbreak appears to be due to “open borders”.
.
Obama et al had best hope that one stays on the down-low, parents tend to get *pised* when government policies maim or kill their kids.
.
Disney-measles, not so much .. lots of international disease-vectors visit the Magic Kingdom petri dish yearly, the only problem here is that Cali has a higher concentration of kids whose parents haven’t vaccinated ’em.
.
I will suggest that you take a look at the history of quarantine law, and of herd vaccination. This is quite near the definition of “good law” and “settled science”, unlike climate change nonsense.
.
Mew
p.s. Junior Cat had a reaction similar to yours, apparently one in a hundred or so had that reaction to a particular MMR vaccination, it’s scary for the parents but not usually life-threatening, and statistically much less of a threat than the diseases the vaccine prevented.
There is also an alternative vaccine that can be used acat, as I said a lot has changed (such as the fact that there are newer vaccines out there to replace the ones with side effects).
–
Measles can (depending on the strain) cause major damage to a child’s vision, so even this measle outbreak can seriously injure children.
I’m under the impression, garfield, that since measles (and the rest of the “childhoods”) aren’t studied much *because they are ‘solved’* .. perhaps that’ll change, but if it does, that’ll take resources away from studying other things.
.
Mew
1. The reason we do not have so many Schools for the Deaf as we used to is: measles vaccine.
2. Personal Story: I grew up in a VERY poor county in Indiana. In my first grade class was another student, RT. He should have been big and handsome and red headed and freckled and an athlete and a school leader. American boy in poor county makes good. He had measles at 3 or 4 and the high fever just burned his brain out. So he was big and red headed and freckled and not so handsome because there was no spark. Not an athlete. Not a leader. Just a wasted, wasted opportunity.
R pooped his pants one day in class. I was five (yes, we started school early) and wicked smart.. and really not very nice because I was the oldest child at home and always had to make everyone mind. I was Mad, MAd, MAD that R had pooped his pants. It wasn’t right. I told everyone (all 12 or so in the class) that they had to choose R as a friend or me. They all chose R. It was a very humbling and life changing experience. I was shamed and ended up a MUCH better person for it.
End story: RT was employed by the local grocery store as a bagger and was always very happy as far as I could tell.
I ordinarily think government should be hands off: but vaccinations? YES, YES, and YES again.