Well, with 60% of the vote in it’s worse than I’d like, but much better than I feared: Donald Trump with around 33% of the vote, for our sins (although I’d love to know what the hell I did to deserve this guy*). Marco Rubio (who had a good night, compared to New Hampshire) and Ted Cruz (who maybe did not) are battling it out for second. Jeb Bush has bowed out**. John Kasich and Ben Carson will not, and John Kasich and Ben Carson should not be on the next debate stage.
All in all, happy I am not. But I was worried that tonight we’d see Trump at 40%, which would have meant that nothing was going to touch him and I’d be stuck with retiring from political blogging. Because I’m not going to vote for a damned 9/11 Troofer. And I won’t host a site that helps one, either…
But we’ve just started the season.
Moe Lane
*That’s the part that always grates on my soul every time somebody says Oh, well, the GOP deserves Donald Trump …Buddy, I’m part of the GOP; and I’ve spent the last ten years trying to get decent, principled, and conservative men and women into office, and even succeeding. So I kind of take it a little personally when I get a face full of buckshot like that. Makes me wonder why the hell I bothered, given the glee on the faces of the people pulling the trigger.
**Let him go in peace. If you can’t do that, go somewhere else.
Ace rips Rubio a new one:
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http://ace.mu.nu/archives/361659.php
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What a slimy little pischer.
Going out on a limb and guessing you mean the pischer running for office here.
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If not, then please consider clarifying.
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If so, then .. please consult the Moe Lane Zen chart, conveniently found here: http://moelane.com/tag/zen/.
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I decline to vote for Rubio, but I also decline to call him names, eh?
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Mew
I was unclear, Ace is a mensch.
Pischer commonly means an innocent; naive; beginner; novice; wet behind the ears, i.e. inexperienced.
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Rubio is Obama-Lite.
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(Granted, slimy may have been a poor choice of words.)
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Rubio is saying one thing in Spanish and another in English re amnesty, then tries to spin it as a mistranslation.
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Wait, not sorry, that’s slimy.
Rubio may be our only hope. I’m not particularly happy about it – it’s a redux of 2008 AND 2012 *again* with the GOP sending in a candidate with the same flaws we want to exploit in the Democrat. If Rubio didn’t have the immigration reform millstone he would be a much easier candidate to swallow.
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But Cruz just isn’t getting the traction I’d hoped.
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On the gripping hand – it is still early. After Super Tuesday, it’ll be all over but for the crying.
… musical interlude?
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https://youtu.be/bdfYJdpB-HA
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(exactly who’ll be doing the crying is TBD)
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Mew
I stand by what I said months ago.
The power players within the GOP can either consolidate behind Cruz, or they can get Trump shoved down their throats.
They’ve made their choice.
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I will not support Mr. Amnesty.
Full stop.
And I am far from alone in this respect.
+1
+1
I am going to note this…VERY mildly.
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Ace is not a Republican…at least, not anymore (“this party, of which I am not a part” — he’s said it like a hundred times). He is also not a conservative. (Can’t find the link offhand, but a couple months back he said he was really more of a disaffected liberal.) And he has admitted lying to his readership in the past.
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If that sort of person doesn’t support Rubio, then as far as I’m concerned, Rubio is Just Fine.
I am not a Republican.
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I am not a conservative by any definition requiring a religious test.
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I believe I have been clear about this in my previous posts, and hope it does not come as a surprise to you.
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I find your position interesting, in that your faith in Rubio is based on his collection of enemies, while other candidates this cycle had amassed much *much* better lists… many with skulls attached.
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Mew
Assembled in a throne-like pile even. Ach well.
If someone is neither a Republican nor a conservative, then no, I don’t feel the need to consider their arguments about who I should vote for. Sorry, acat. It’s the “lied to me” part that really pisses me off, though. If you haven’t done that, then we’re still good.
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As for your last paragraph, you would be well-advised not to tread down that road. I started as a Walker supporter. Then I was a Perry supporter. Those were the first two candidates out, despite their records of accomplishment, and Trump is the primary reason why. But apparently 35% of primary voters are *so angry* that they can’t make the distinction between a real, effective conservative and a guy who is just playing one on TV…and even then, only for the moment.
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I would also be CONSIDERABLY more sympathetic to people who say “The GOP deserves Trump” if those people hadn’t seemingly stood by and watched as good conservative governors with solid records who could have united the party became casualties of his headline-hogging.
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The GOP deserved Walker and Perry and Jindal. All it has now standing between it and Trump are two minority first-term senators from big states who are good, inspiring speakers but have scant records and no experience as executives. I wanted to vote for a real anti-Obama, and I am livid that the caprice of the electorate has deprived me of that opportunity.
I haven’t lied to you.
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Ace has been specific about what he’s lied about – mostly that the last few nominees were worth more than a bucket of warm spit.
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Your top three were all in my top five .. I also considered Walker, Perry, and Jindal to be what the party needed.
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Where we disagree, it appears, is blaming Trump for their exits. .
I can agree Trump soaked up a lot of the oxygen in the room, but .. you’re giving other candidates a pass by just focusing blame on Trump, eh? Jeb – who has apparently suspended his campaign – spent *more* than Trump .. does that not count for something?
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I also have to disagree over “stood by and doing nothing” .. as I mentioned elsewhere, I have questions I ask Trump supporters, and one of them is “who did you start this cycle backing?” .. it’s almost never Trump.
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Mew
He can be as specific as he wants. But he’s never apologized for it, and in any case, he’s spent so much time saying “Better Trump than Rubio” that he’s pretty much dead to me. (Someone says “Better Cruz than Rubio” or “Better Rubio than Cruz,” I consider that a reasonable difference of opinion. Someone says “Better Trump than Cruz” or “Better Trump than Rubio,” they’re basically saying “I’m okay with at least four years of Hillary,” whether they know that or not.)
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And yes, that appears to be where we disagree. Except that I don’t even know what you mean by “giving other candidates a pass.” Would Walker or Perry have been substantially helped if Bush hadn’t gotten in the race? I don’t see how.
Let me walk you through my thinking, DemosthenesVW.
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Jeb won the “money primary”. I don’t have a problem with that, it happens every 4 years, and someone wins it every 4 years – although I’d like to see a halfway solid conservative win it more than once a half-century.
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Jeb spent a *lot* of money. Again, don’t have a problem with that, Hillary’s spent a lot of money too. (Apparently, she and Sanders have an advertising war going in Oklahoma at the moment .. ) Every campaign spends money.
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Thing is, if Jeb hadn’t entered, he wouldn’t have won the money primary, which would have left more money around for Jindal or Perry or Walker to pick up .. Jeb *did* suck oxygen out of the room.
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Again, not criticizing Jeb – Walker, Jindal, Perry et al *should have* come out swinging and attracted oxygen, the way Trump has.
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Perry had a national audience and Texas media, Walker had win after win after win in Wisconsin, Jindal would have been the tough sell as a fighter, he’s more of a thinker, but .. sharpness *can be learned* – most law schools teach it to litigators.
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I’m not blaming Jeb .. any more than I’m blaming Trump. Walker, Perry, Jindal, Carly, Christie, and now Jeb have flamed out .. any of them would have been better than Trump .. but *not one* figured out how to blunt Trump’s appeal.
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Mew
You will note that all of those governors were removed by the party apparatus, without a single vote ever being cast.
It’s only due to Trump’s impact on the race that Cruz wasn’t defenestrated as well.
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It happens every four years, credible conservatives are weeded out, and chuckleheads like Santorum and Huckabee are allowed to remain.
I think Ace has been quite clear about what *the GOP* (and the Dems) did to deserve Trump, Moe.
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That it was done is not changeable.
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That you were, classical reference, standing athwart history shouting “STOP!” is noted.
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I suggest that you try to avoid taking Trump personally – you didn’t create him…. but you might be able to leverage him.
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Mew
This.
So very much this.
Nope. He gets the nomination, I will take that as an unsubtle hint from the Republican party that my services will no longer be required.
Funny, I felt the same way about Sen. Cochran, and about Romney, and several other instances.
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I guess you’re just drawing your Picard Line “this far and no farther!” in a different place.
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I’ll be watching to see how it works out for you.
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Mew
Well, I’ll tell you this, Moe. If and/or when you decide to change your blogging site or focus, I’ll still be reading you. We don’t agree on everything, but we agree on a lot — and I trust that you’ll be honest about what you think whether I agree or not. That goes a long way with me.
+1
I’m right there with you on that one, Moe. Trump vs Clinton or Sanders will make me vote 3rd party for President for the first time in my lifetime.
Should Trump win, I fully intend to vote Johnson.
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Mew
Be happy you’ll have that option. My state is only likely to have two options on the ballot, and we can’t write anyone in either.
There are always other options.
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Leaving the POTUS section blank but voting the rest of the ballot is the least-best option .. writing in Mickey Mouse (or Vermin Supreme**) is better .. a third-party vote is the best because those get *reported*.
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Mew
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** https://www.facebook.com/VerminSupreme/
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(I live in a State where I’ll have third-party options, and will not need to write in a rodent)
Again, can’t vote write-in, and (most likely) won’t have a third candidate. I would happily exercise either of those options were they available.
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I do agree with you, however, that my options are not strictly limited by the candidates on the ballot. If my only choices are Trump and Clinton/Sanders, then I choose not to choose.
DemosthenesVW – please consider looking into ballot access rules in your State. You might be able to help create another option.
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Mew
I’ll write in Zombie Ronald Reagan before I vote for Donald f’ckin Trump.
Yes indeed Kasich and Carson to the kiddie table . For Carson . sorry to see you go See you later as Sec HHS . . For Kasich , get the F outta here while you can still walk .
Given the petulance of Carson, I wouldn’t trust him in a Cabinet position. Heck, I’m not sure I’d trust him to run a HOA at this point.
The whole season has been guilt by association. No one even close to being “establishment”, whatever that means. No Illegal immigrants, or even legal ones depending on who you ask.
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The problem with that is a whole lot of babies get thrown out with that bathwater, and you get madness that leads to Robespierre, Napoleon, Lenin, and Donald f’n Trump.
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Or as a classmate from Bible College once posited The Good Lord saying to him at the Pearly Gates: “Okay, yes I know you… But you knew THEM!”
Rather, no one who has betrayed us.
And that’s a very long list.
Rubio is on it.
As is Kasich.
I find that long lists get longer fast. Sooner or later everyone will end up on it.
That’s called a “purity death spiral”.
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“Scary slippery slope, that, if you were never taught how to ski.” — Lois Bujold
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For whatever it’s worth to you, I’ll agree that purity death spirals are dangerous, and that most people who climb onto ’em have no idea how to ski.
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Mew
And that is exactly why I stepped off the purity bandwagon. I will happily vote for any conservative whom the Republicans nominate, whether I agree with them on every issue or not.
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That includes Cruz.
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That includes Rubio.
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That emphatically does not include Trump.
^^^ This.
I’ve got no problem with Cruz. He’s a bit more religious than I’d like, but if y’all have your response for charges of “Dominionist!” ready, I think he’d do well.
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I’ve got one problem with Rubio – other than he loves America, I don’t have the foggiest idea what he actually believes.. or what negotiation skills he brings to the table.
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Trump also appears to love America, and I’ve seen his negotiation skills, so .. your acceptance of one but rejection of the other is not compelling. Would you care to explain it further?
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Mew
Rubio is a conservative. Cruz is a conservative. Trump is not. It’s just that simple for me.
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No, I’m not happy about Rubio’s Great Sin. Nor am I happy that Cruz spent so much of his time in the Senate as a bomb-thrower. But I don’t have to agree with someone completely to vote for them. I had reservations about Bush 43, and McCain, and Romney. But compare them with their opponents, and it was a very clear choice for me. As for Cruz and Rubio, for crying out loud, just look at their vote records. They are conservatives, both of them.
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Trump’s love of America carries far less weight with me than his history of being pro-choice, pro-gun-control, in favor of government health care, and buying politicians (and then bragging about it during a GOP debate, no less). His supporters have often been among the loudest in castigating politicians for flip-flopping to win votes, and yet they seemingly have no problem with his doing the same thing. Whatever.
I like that Cruz is a bomb-thrower, I view that as a good thing.
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I do not like that, for a bomb-thrower, his campaign has been .. muted.
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Cruz is a brilliant attorney, he shouldn’t be trying to be “above the fray”, that’s a luxury to be savored** in the general, and in the oval office – the primary is where that luxury is earned.
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The same is true of Rubio .. well, without the bomb-throwing or litigation experience. That pretty much leaves .. the love of country, and the .. how did you put it .. “Great Sin”.
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If I may ask, which aspect of Rubio’s amnesty disaster do you consider the sin, the attempt, the failure, or the lack of repentance?
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Mew
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** specifically, it’s a chance to *rest* a little …
I heard that an undecided voter said this about Trump (paraphrased): “I don’t know whether he had a ‘road to Damascus’ moment or whether he’s dating the preacher’s daughter regarding his conversion to conservatism, but I suspect it’s the latter”
The attempt. I don’t see how I can reasonably expect someone to repent for doing what they think is right.
For Finrod’s consideration:
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https://youtu.be/Wve_SaJa4go
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Mew
To DemosthenesVW – as noted, I’m not religious, so I may be missing something…
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If one doesn’t repent, doesn’t that mean one is still in sin?
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Mew
It is a great thing that Cruz was a bombthrower.
That happens to be exactly what we need.
We are down to our very last chance to save the country as a constitutional republic, and doing so requires drastic measures.
Like the day one issuing of an executive order declaring that no federal regulation has the force of law unless it has been specifically enacted into law by both houses of congress and signed by the President.
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That’s was a time when incremental could have worked.
That was before the country saw fit to elect a socialist who held the rule of law in contempt. Twice. And before the Supreme Court took upon itself the power to fundamental reorder society. And before the IRS became a partisan weapon. And before the Democratic candidate for President flagrantly committed hundreds of felonies, absolutely certain that laws only ally to little people. (I could continue.)
Rule of Law is kaput.
We’ve got one shot at reviving it.
One.
Closing thread now.
The trouble with bathing the baby in dirty bathwater, though, is .. the baby ends up not getting clean…
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Rubio has – as our host Moe has pointed out – a *very good* conservative voting record. He’s an inspiring speaker. He appears to be a good human.
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Rubio has also – as Ace of Spades has noted – not believably moved off his amnesty-and-no-fence position, i.e. statements made by Rubio always appear to be when his political career depends on it.
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I decline to vote for Rubio, I believe he will not deliver on closing borders and using government to increase wages by restricting the labor market.
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Yes, doing so is heretical, from a fiscal-conservative point of view, but .. so is the volume of welfare we’re paying people *not* to work .. and I don’t see that heresy going away either.
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Mew
The thing is throwing out the bathwater, baby or not, is no guarantee of a fresh tub. Especially if the next bucket of water is quite clearly full of sh*t.
It’s a guarantee of a *different* tub.
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In this cat’s opinion, given the current tub resembles a septic tank, changing it is better than not.
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As for the next bucket, We The People haven’t *decided* whether to go with sh*t, lying sh*t, free sh*t, sh*t with a hairpiece, piss, or vinegar yet.
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Mew
Great. Just don’t flush a block of C4 down the toilet. Call an experienced contractor.
…. I am an experienced contractor, and you are extending a metaphor.
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Obviously, you don’t use C4 (unless the drains are a Tausennigan** design) or you want to have a chat with the local law enforcement types.
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What you do instead is to add an antagonist to the bathwater; the antagonist must have several properties – it must eat away at the offending material, it must have a similar density to water so it will encounter the offending material, it must be safe for the baby, and it must not damage the tub .. or drains.
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I am perfectly willing to agree Trump is a lousy antagonist. I don’t support him, and have several questions for those who do. He is, however, clearly having an effect on the clogs.
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Mew
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** (future) classical reference: http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2002-10-13
I believe you called for a whole new tub first, but it wears thin yes.
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Also, I would totally consider voting for Petey.
I intended to replace the water, not the tub.
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I woud also vote for Petey, although I’m not sure how he’d prove eligibility…
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Mew
“Differnet tub.” Eh. Potay-to Potah-to.
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I wonder what conceptions of “natural-born” would be for an agglomerated AI? Many components of Fleetmind, for which Petey is Prime Avatar, are from UNS ships. {oh God why am I going down this road…..}
I’m not a mind-reading cat, I know that I go down these side-trails because the main road is .. not pretty .. these days.
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Mew
As a lukewarm supporter of Trump, I’ll go on record to say that despotism is much preferable to socialism/fascism.
It has a much lower body count, for one thing.
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It’s not something I’m eager for. I’d very much like to keep our Republic.
But if that’s not possible, I want those who spent the last several decades deliberately undermining it lined up against a wall and shot, not holding power and profiting from their actions.
I will note that this week, I saw many of the GOP officeholders and party professionals consolidate to fight against Ted Cruz with a ferocity and underhandedness that I’ve never seen deployed against an actual Democrat.
It reminded me greatly of the last round of congressional primaries.
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I’ve drawn my conclusions.
Those pigfuckers are going to get Trump nominated, pardon my French.
.. en Francais, that’d be “baiseur de porcs” .. and yes, yes they are.
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‘s part of why I differ with our host over where to draw my la ligne de picard, eh?
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Mew
French was the only class in college I ever dropped. I took German the next year which I had much fewer problems with, since in German it’s much easier to go between written and spoken than almost any other language. With French I couldn’t distinguish between all the various vowel sounds.
Put another way . 2/3 of the R Party want some one other than Trump . I believe that a Trump candidacy will hand , on a silver platter ,the presidency to Hillary , the Senate to Schumer and SCOTUS to the far, far Left . On a happier note , recall that the Nazi Party never polled higher than 42 % in national elections , more typically in the middle 30’s , and see how well that worked for Germany . Enjoy your little hissy fit with Trump and then reap the whirlwind .
2/3 of the party want someone other than Trump as their first choice. As candidates drop out, it will be interesting to see exactly who goes where. If 50%+1 want Trump more than they want Cruz, which seems to be true of a lot of people, well then, exactly who’s having the hissy fit?
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I’m almost 47, and this is the first time in my life I’ll get to vote for an actual conservative in the primary when it hasn’t already been decided against all the conservative candidates. I’ve gotten to vote for a conservative in the general election exactly zero times. But with the exception of McCain, I’ve generally not minded too much voting for the moderate that ends up nominated. I understand that some people won’t be able to vote for Trump if he gets the nomination because of his personal boorishness, and that’s ok. But his positions? Come on, he currently claims to hold mostly conservative ones, exactly like Romney did, and he’s held them for about as long as Romney had when he was the nominee. Romney, however, seemed to be a genuinely nice guy, for a liberal Republican though.
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Oh, and I was wondering if this thread was going to get Godwin’d, turns out it took 60 messages.